to america at 14, 15, $16 an hour. we don't celebrate that. i'm glad they're here instead of china, but heck. if we had an economy that would support $30-an-hour jobs, i'd be for that. better than a ceo. you know, destroying a company and then getting a $200 million payout. but that said, what is wrong with a state allowing an american to work where he or she wants to work without having to be compelled to pay union dues? >> well, this state, michigan, was such a part of the core of unionism in this country, the foundation of the united automobile workers which at one point had over 1 million workers in its enrollment is now down to roughly maybe 350,000 workers. the united automobile workers, everybody can own a car in america. the history of unionism has been inextricably linked to the growth of the middle class, as you know, over the last 60 years of american history. the right-to-work legislation that has passed now in 24 states, i don't think you can dem demonstrably prove that it leads to higher wages, that it leads to marginally -- >> but what's wrong with giving people the freedom to